Is buying used games just as bad as pirating? Is it worse?
Now this might seem preposterous to some of you, but think about it: when you buy a used game from Game Stop you not only rob everyone who actually was involved in the creation of that game, but you give Game Stop more money so they can continue to do it and get better at it. All a pirate does is the robbing part.
My 2 cents: Both are bad. I don't like to pirate games and doubt I ever will but I used to buy used games a decent amount. Not anymore. Well at least that's the plan. I can't wait for the day I can buy all games straight from the developer with no stores and publishers getting in the way.
I'm not saying go pirate games if you buy used games: just throwing out a discussion to talk about.
@wocalax: The day you can buy right from the developer is now. Digital Downloads have been around a fair while. And yeah I reckon Used sales are crap loads worse than piracy. A pirate may not be much interested in a game. But someone who buys a used game clearly is interested and will spend cash on the game, but none of that actually goes to the developer. Console game sales dropped 25% last year, and a large part of that is attributed to used game sales (and ironically enough to folks making their games too compelling and with a bit too much replayability n MP functionality :P)
@CuttySark: I never considered it. I'm assuming rental places buy them new which is good, but then they sell them off which stinks for the developer. Would renters really buy it though otherwise? They'd probably end up buying it used which is bad too.
@wocalax: Buying used games is legal, pirating them is not. People shouldn't feel bad for legally buying a game just because it's pre-owned. Especially with the amount of DLC being put out these days.
So no, I don't feel bad. Although I usually wait for a big price drop o new games. Not to mention it's easier to find used games than used for older games.
@Ivan Lopez: he was talking about the developpers, if 60% buy used game, they lost quite a profit, that mean less game for them, mean less game they develop
@wocalax: I suppose it depends how you feel about the retailer; if you don't like somewhere like GameStop and you don't want to buy from them, then used is the wrong way to go, because they'll get probably all the profit there. Of course, if you pirate it, that's technically theft, so from a moral level, piracy is worse, as it's not legitimately acquiring goods, but eitherway, the developer loses out. I don't have much of a moral code, but I always personally buy new, just so I can support a developer and contribute to their success; same as with movies and music (though quality wise, I can't help but feel those industries deserved to be robbed due to the terrible output).
@bakura: The DLC answer is still my answer. Although this ends up being a question if one likes the game enough. For instance, I actually bought ME2 used, but I have no plans to buy any DLC as I'm quite content with the main game.
I imagine piracy meaning an inability to buy DLC or getting the DLC pirated anyway. With used games the player has the option of expanding their gameplay experience if they wish to, or if they just wanna hand some cash to the dev.
Out of the many fine distinctions you miss I'll point out these:
A used game was new at one point.
You're not robbing anyone. Ever. You're legitimately paying for a product.
When you buy a new game the money doesn't go to the developer. The lions share and frequently all of it goes to the publisher, who may or may not sign the developer on for another contract.
The vast majority of publishers couldn't exist without IP laws. We have IP laws because we respect the rights of ownership in our a culture. Rights must be universal, not limited to a select few. You cannot own something if you can't sell it. Used games are when the owner, who bought a single instance of the game from the previous owner, sells it to a new owner. Just like when the publisher did it originally. So, by viewing used games as wrong we weaken the whole concept of ownership that allows the entities that own the entities that make the games to exist, slightly. By equating it to stealing, which is far different in both intention and severity, you are doing the system a far greater disservice.
@Ivan Lopez: There's a difference between legality and morality. Selling software with EULAs instead of traditional rights is legal, although not very moral.
@Salari: An imagined loss is not the same as an actual loss, and the current system still benefits Publishers (developers are not the ones dealing with retail or reaping the rewards).
If Gamestop's practices were actually harmful for Publishers, why would they take part in them? There are plenty of stores that sell video games. Normally they're near a gamestop too and have more space. Or, if running game stores was an easy job, why wouldn't they open their own? They certainly have money. It's because Gamestop makes them far more than they potentially lose through used sales. It's a risky business at all levels, and Gamestop diffuses some of the risk through selling used games. Gamestop actually helps them and makes them money.
I say this as someone who despises the place and hasn't bought a game there in a year.
@Batman: How do you feel about having there be a middleman(Game Stop) taking a substantial chunk of money for just helping the owner sell it to another owner? It makes it easier but they stay afloat by taking from people.
Also, how do you feel about services like Steam and D2D who basically give you a non-transferable right to play their game(assuming there's no DRM or stuff)(also I heard Steam may allow trading or selling back soon, forget where)?
@wocalax: You assume used game sales always hurt dev's, which is not true: consider that the ability to resell a game for a good amount may factor into someone's decision to purchase a new game. Consider that someone who gets hooked on a series or introduced to a great developer through the purchase of a used title may be more likely to buy their games new in the future.
Also, it seems you have set up a construct wherein supporting devs is morally superior to giving business to stores like Gamestop, and I personally feel that's kind of an arbitrary moral judgment to make.
I don't normally buy used unless the price is significantly lower, by the way. But it's just economics - if a large portion of customers are rejecting a $60 price tag in favor of a $56 used copy, maybe the developer should reconsider its pricing scheme.
@Ivan Lopez: I don't think the fact something is legal should be enough reason to believe it's right, but in this case, yeah, I think renting games is legal cause it's not really bad and pirating is illegal because it hurts.
But does Game Stop really deserve any of the money? Especially when some developers are having such a hard time(though most having a hard time have them because they didn't sell any - can't buy used if no body buys it first :D ) #speakup(Edit comment)
@wocalax: I think that gamestop is ultimately good for the publisher by providing a centralized location dedicated just to games. I think it is bad for the buyers though, and eventually services like Glyde and Ebay will supplant it.
I feel like they're in they're in their infancy and eventually the rights will be transferable on some level. I think EULA's in general are going to face increasing skepticism as younger people join the Supreme court and digital rights become more important.
@p4w4rr10r: My choice to support Devs is because they made the product I like. It is not arbitrary. I'd rather give them my money than GameStop. But then again who am I to deprive all those publishers or game stores (who I consider middlemen) jobs? Without middlemen A LOT of people would be without jobs in basically every industry which would be much much worse.
I did forget about how used games do sell though, and they could benefit especially if the game is going to have a sequel, and like you mentioned people might just now like the series, like the developer, or something.
I'm glad games are going to free to play(with things to buy) and testing new prices schemes. And Valve released data about how drastically cutting the price, even if just for a week, can have a nice profit(think I saw it on Kotaku [www.techdirt.com] )
Hopefully soon there will be some more price schemes that become popular that are beneficial to the buyer and the seller.
@wocalax: Agreed all around. Also, I wasn't accusing you of being arbitrary in your decision, as I usually make the same call myself. I was simply suggesting that morally, we can't really judge those whoe purchase used, since supporting a retailer may provide jobs, etc. as you mentioned.
@wocalax: "I think renting games is legal cause it's not really bad and pirating is illegal because it hurts."
Tell that to the Japanese government and Nintendo. They've made strides to making rentals illegal. It doesn't make much sense since places like Blockbuster proved that rentals can still be a lucrative business for all parties involved.
Back on topic:
If someone sells the disc to gamestop, then yes, gamestop deserves the money. No more or less than if you or I sold a game to our next door neighbor or a family member looking for a new game on the cheap.
Really, you'd have to question the very ethics of everyone who has ever sold a single item on Ebay, Craigslist, or even at a garage sale.
Toys, films, furniture, clothing, etc. All have the sweat of labor put into them. What of these thrift stores that take these items, reshelves them, and sells them dirt cheap? I have no problems with devs looking to make some kind of money off of the used games via DLC, but I don't have a problem with people buying used games either. Neither is a question of ethics in my book.
The main reason why I'd personally choose new over used is because there's a guarantee of a working disc, intact case, and a undamaged cover and manual.
@wocalax: So you're telling me that if I buy a couch and then have to move to a smaller place, that I should just throw my couch away instead of selling it or giving it away. And the reason I should do this is to prevent others from purchased something used when they should be buying new?
The way I look at it, once I purchase something, its mine, and I can do whatever I want with it (this isn't the U.S.S.R. after all). If that means selling something to make money or buying used to save money then so be it.
If developers don't like the current model, then they need to pressure manufacturers to create purchasing structures that make the selling of used games impossible (i.e. Steam, XBLA, PSN).
So to answer your questions directly. YES, it is wrong to pirate games. NO, it is not wrong to sell/buy used games.
@wocalax: As you can already tell from 2 of the smartest minds on Kotaku, Used isn't bad. I like to buy used because it's a lot cheaper than buying brand new especially if it's a game that isn't that great. The developer gets their money and people like gamestop that only sell games make money too. It would be like buying it off a friend except it's a bit higher and covered in god-awful stickers.
@bakura: If 60% of a game has been returned to the store, to me that means the game has a 40% retention rate. I don't know about your schools, but in mine 40% is pretty far along in the F category. It's called capitalism, games that are good will sell, games that are bad will not. And if you want to even try to pretend Indie can't survive now, Look at Castle Crashers. 3 guys started it.
@wocalax: Are you honestly that naive? If a game's used sales are cannibalizing it's new sales during it's life, then that game wasn't very good. Here's a few other key points you missed.
1. Publishers are needed because they guarantee start up money to developers with an idea they think will work. Ever heard of a Movie Producer?
2. Mortar stores are needed because they buy games in bulk, and guarantee an immediate payback to the Developer or Publisher who can negotiate purchasing contracts with.
3. Used game sales are needed because the Mortar store needs to make enough profit to stay open, pay taxes, hire employees, and keep the system of purchasing afloat. If the majority of GameStop's profits come from Used purchases then so be it, they're not #1 on the stock exchange, bud.
4. If a buyer is so inclined that he's willing to sell a game back to a store for a steep cut, especially during the life of the game, then that game is clearly not what he was looking for.
And while yes you laud the new distribution systems of Steam, or maybe even XBLA, iTunes, and PSN, here's another clue: If that's where a developer or publisher thinks he's going to make the most amount of money, he isn't forced to sell it in a box to GameStop.
Also, last I checked, Steam was a rip off. Usually demanding the same price as I could get at any Mortar store, tying up my network for a several gigabyte game, and making transferability a pain. If I ever lost my account I could lose an entire library of games. I don't want identity theft tied into losing purchases I've made. #speakup(Edit comment)
@deanb: Can you link where you found that 25% decline? I've found two sources that quote the decline at 6%, and not because of used game sales. In fact, SeekingAlpha.com placed more of the reason on Digital Downloads, and Social Games such as (you guessed it) Farmville.
It seems that competition, not quality replayable games, is the reason sales are declining. Wait, I have a NEW question @wocalax is playing quality Free! games on the interwebs as bad as butchering babies?
Is buying used games just as bad as pirating? Is it worse?
Now this might seem preposterous to some of you, but think about it: when you buy a used game from Game Stop you not only rob everyone who actually was involved in the creation of that game, but you give Game Stop more money so they can continue to do it and get better at it. All a pirate does is the robbing part.
My 2 cents: Both are bad. I don't like to pirate games and doubt I ever will but I used to buy used games a decent amount. Not anymore. Well at least that's the plan. I can't wait for the day I can buy all games straight from the developer with no stores and publishers getting in the way.
I'm not saying go pirate games if you buy used games: just throwing out a discussion to talk about.
#speakup (Edit comment)
And yeah I reckon Used sales are crap loads worse than piracy. A pirate may not be much interested in a game. But someone who buys a used game clearly is interested and will spend cash on the game, but none of that actually goes to the developer.
Console game sales dropped 25% last year, and a large part of that is attributed to used game sales (and ironically enough to folks making their games too compelling and with a bit too much replayability n MP functionality :P)
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Hmm I don't know.
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So no, I don't feel bad. Although I usually wait for a big price drop o new games. Not to mention it's easier to find used games than used for older games.
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I imagine piracy meaning an inability to buy DLC or getting the DLC pirated anyway. With used games the player has the option of expanding their gameplay experience if they wish to, or if they just wanna hand some cash to the dev.
#speakup (Edit comment)
Out of the many fine distinctions you miss I'll point out these:
A used game was new at one point.
You're not robbing anyone. Ever. You're legitimately paying for a product.
When you buy a new game the money doesn't go to the developer. The lions share and frequently all of it goes to the publisher, who may or may not sign the developer on for another contract.
The vast majority of publishers couldn't exist without IP laws.
We have IP laws because we respect the rights of ownership in our a culture.
Rights must be universal, not limited to a select few.
You cannot own something if you can't sell it.
Used games are when the owner, who bought a single instance of the game from the previous owner, sells it to a new owner. Just like when the publisher did it originally.
So, by viewing used games as wrong we weaken the whole concept of ownership that allows the entities that own the entities that make the games to exist, slightly. By equating it to stealing, which is far different in both intention and severity, you are doing the system a far greater disservice.
#speakup (Edit comment)
I still don't think it's wrong though.
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If Gamestop's practices were actually harmful for Publishers, why would they take part in them? There are plenty of stores that sell video games. Normally they're near a gamestop too and have more space. Or, if running game stores was an easy job, why wouldn't they open their own? They certainly have money. It's because Gamestop makes them far more than they potentially lose through used sales. It's a risky business at all levels, and Gamestop diffuses some of the risk through selling used games. Gamestop actually helps them and makes them money.
I say this as someone who despises the place and hasn't bought a game there in a year.
#speakup (Edit comment)
Also, how do you feel about services like Steam and D2D who basically give you a non-transferable right to play their game(assuming there's no DRM or stuff)(also I heard Steam may allow trading or selling back soon, forget where)?
#speakup (Edit comment)
Also, it seems you have set up a construct wherein supporting devs is morally superior to giving business to stores like Gamestop, and I personally feel that's kind of an arbitrary moral judgment to make.
I don't normally buy used unless the price is significantly lower, by the way. But it's just economics - if a large portion of customers are rejecting a $60 price tag in favor of a $56 used copy, maybe the developer should reconsider its pricing scheme.
Interesting, though.
#speakup (Edit comment)
But does Game Stop really deserve any of the money? Especially when some developers are having such a hard time(though most having a hard time have them because they didn't sell any - can't buy used if no body buys it first :D )
#speakup (Edit comment)
I feel like they're in they're in their infancy and eventually the rights will be transferable on some level. I think EULA's in general are going to face increasing skepticism as younger people join the Supreme court and digital rights become more important.
#speakup (Edit comment)
I did forget about how used games do sell though, and they could benefit especially if the game is going to have a sequel, and like you mentioned people might just now like the series, like the developer, or something.
I'm glad games are going to free to play(with things to buy) and testing new prices schemes. And Valve released data about how drastically cutting the price, even if just for a week, can have a nice profit(think I saw it on Kotaku [www.techdirt.com]
)
Hopefully soon there will be some more price schemes that become popular that are beneficial to the buyer and the seller.
#speakup (Edit comment)
#speakup (Edit comment)
Tell that to the Japanese government and Nintendo. They've made strides to making rentals illegal. It doesn't make much sense since places like Blockbuster proved that rentals can still be a lucrative business for all parties involved.
Back on topic:
If someone sells the disc to gamestop, then yes, gamestop deserves the money. No more or less than if you or I sold a game to our next door neighbor or a family member looking for a new game on the cheap.
Really, you'd have to question the very ethics of everyone who has ever sold a single item on Ebay, Craigslist, or even at a garage sale.
Toys, films, furniture, clothing, etc. All have the sweat of labor put into them. What of these thrift stores that take these items, reshelves them, and sells them dirt cheap? I have no problems with devs looking to make some kind of money off of the used games via DLC, but I don't have a problem with people buying used games either. Neither is a question of ethics in my book.
The main reason why I'd personally choose new over used is because there's a guarantee of a working disc, intact case, and a undamaged cover and manual.
#speakup (Edit comment)
The way I look at it, once I purchase something, its mine, and I can do whatever I want with it (this isn't the U.S.S.R. after all). If that means selling something to make money or buying used to save money then so be it.
If developers don't like the current model, then they need to pressure manufacturers to create purchasing structures that make the selling of used games impossible (i.e. Steam, XBLA, PSN).
So to answer your questions directly. YES, it is wrong to pirate games. NO, it is not wrong to sell/buy used games.
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1. Publishers are needed because they guarantee start up money to developers with an idea they think will work. Ever heard of a Movie Producer?
2. Mortar stores are needed because they buy games in bulk, and guarantee an immediate payback to the Developer or Publisher who can negotiate purchasing contracts with.
3. Used game sales are needed because the Mortar store needs to make enough profit to stay open, pay taxes, hire employees, and keep the system of purchasing afloat. If the majority of GameStop's profits come from Used purchases then so be it, they're not #1 on the stock exchange, bud.
4. If a buyer is so inclined that he's willing to sell a game back to a store for a steep cut, especially during the life of the game, then that game is clearly not what he was looking for.
And while yes you laud the new distribution systems of Steam, or maybe even XBLA, iTunes, and PSN, here's another clue: If that's where a developer or publisher thinks he's going to make the most amount of money, he isn't forced to sell it in a box to GameStop.
Also, last I checked, Steam was a rip off. Usually demanding the same price as I could get at any Mortar store, tying up my network for a several gigabyte game, and making transferability a pain. If I ever lost my account I could lose an entire library of games. I don't want identity theft tied into losing purchases I've made.
#speakup (Edit comment)
It seems that competition, not quality replayable games, is the reason sales are declining. Wait, I have a NEW question @wocalax is playing quality Free! games on the interwebs as bad as butchering babies?
#speakup (Edit comment)
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