Import from Holland ftw.

import from america for PSP ftw!
since wii and ps2 arent multi-region (i think)

...
Somehow, I relate this to the Clockwork Orange scandal back in the 60's...
Of course, M2 is no masterpiece.

Couldn't Rockstar just make the game non-region coded and sell it on the internet ?

I'm not too sure about this. It seems pretty unfair, but when you consider that the BBFC have only ever banned one other game (Carmageddon) and that was overturned on appeal, they must be pretty damn sure about this one.

Nothing like the smell of censorship in the morning.

@Dragonzigg: I think the BBFC's issue here is that it's violent for the sake of being violent. Unlike most FPS' etc., the story revolves around killing people for the sake of it, rather then driving a completely seperate story.

My only issue with the ruling is that the BBFC can't allow regular Britons the choice to buy the title if they wish to, and decide for themselves.

im hanging out to see what the OFLC down here in Aussie say about it... but i have a feeling it will be a similar response

I think the problem here is not the game but the fact that the BBFC has an 18+ category but simply refuses to ignore it. More or less all of the gaming public knows what is in the game, just put the labels on it and be done. Then it is between R*, Nintendo & Sony as to whether it will be released on their consoles.

@projectmayhem: Isn't Manhunt about some sick Underground television using killers and what not for blood sport? What's so different from Saw or The Condemned or whatever that Steve Austin movie about the convicts on the island made to kill each other for tele shows?

This still doesnt mean manhunt 2 is out of hope. The appeal can still go ahead and either cut could make it through to the UK. All this means is that the game will be delayed by many, many months. Im british and i think this is quite simply ridiculously. I seriously think Rockstar should give the middle finger, release the game in some other european countries and let us import. The actual commerical UK release can wait till the appeal, but please please. PLEASE release it in europe earlier than that so i can import it.

i dont mind. games like this arent what we need. carmageddon was what, 10 years ago? and shit like this just creates the impression we havent moved on.

@Black-Dog-Howls:
Yep, Saw, Hostel et al are 100% fine, but the moment its a video game it isnt.

*sigh*

@ Masterofpastures

Clockwork Orange was the 70s and, furthermore, it did actually get rated and released back in the day. It was Kubrick who had Warner Bros. withdraw it when a tabloid shit-storm brewed-up concerning violent teenagers that claimed to be influenced by the film.

As for the BBFC thing. All in all, they're a very good classification board. Films very rarely get cut. For example, Michael Winterbottom's "9 Songs", which is pretty much hardcore pornography, was released as an 18 certificate on general release throughout the country. The point I'm trying to make is that the BBFC has a history of considered and thoughtfull classification. It is very rare that they will ever something outright so Manhunt must have really pressed some buttons.

My major issue with this whole situation is the BBFC need to come out and say why Manhunt 2 didn't receive a classification but something like Saw does. It needs to state why it considers violence in games to be any different from violence in films.

Sorry, that should read 'It is very rare that they will ever BAN something outright so Manhunt must have really pressed some buttons'.

I applaud the BBFC in making this decision. They must have had input from both sides of the argument whilst classifying the game and I think they came to the right conclusion.

The difference between play a game like this and watching a film or reading a book with similar content is that the video game medium is interactive and promotes, in most cases, the honing of the skills involved in playing the game.

Why you would want to try a game like this, let alone play it until completion baffles me.

Any before you flame for me being pro censorship, which anybody who knows me would laugh at, consider this. Just because you and I may be mentally and emotionally mature enough to play this game and understand it concepts and storyline within the context of being a video game, does not mean that everybody will be capable of doing the same thing. A lot of people who are legally 'adult' are actually emotionally or mentally immature.

I am all in favour of a society where we are responsible enough to deem certain things out of bounds. It helps make the world a better place for everybody involved. Until we get to the point where we have a utopian society where everybody is sufficiently mature and sensible enough to play games like this without them having too much of an effect on them, I think that games makers and publishers should start to exercise more control over what they make and publish. The BBFC is doing the right thing in helping them reach this conclusion themselves by rejecting this game.

As has been said, the BBFC aren't world-renowned for being particularly zealous in banning things. Whatever their justification might be I don't think it should be banned, but I am willing to consider that this is pretty darned hardcore violence here.

Why this isn't allowed by torture porn in movies is, I couldn't tell you.

@johnnywashngo: Your argument holds merit insofar as the fact that there are indeed people who do not have what is needed to properly process this game, or similar violent media. However, first you say that something like this would hone skills - I don't recall many murders committed by pressing the buttons of a Dual Shock. Second our socities of the West tend to agree, and rightly so, that those people who can handle such media should not be prevented from enjoying it because some other people can't.

Whether or not other people can handle something is not relevant. I can, and thus I have the right to if I choose to, and no authority or individual on the planet has any right to stop me.

No, no, no, no, no.

I am 33 years old, I would never hurt a fly, and I love computer games. I understand the difference between right and wrong; fantasy and reality, etc.
I want to play this game. I am a mature adult living in Britain, and I find this decision incredibly patronising. I should have the right to decide for myself what is or is not appropriate. It is the right of every adult- or it should be.

It's just another disgusting symptom of the Nanny State that Britain has become. Those that applaud this decision are tantamount to Nazis and Thought Police. No consideration for the rights and freedoms of their fellow men. Utterly disgusting and shameful. So "a lot of people who are legally 'adult' are actually emotionally or mentally immature", are they? Well then, what a fantastic idea to treat EVERYONE like that then. "Some of you people are idiots, so it is fine to treat you ALL like idiots"? How dare you!

If we are so quick to throw away our rights and freedoms to choose and make decisions for ourselves, we may as well have just handed the country over to the Nazis back in the 40s. Our ancestors fought and died for these rights. I will not be so quick to disregard them.

@CYBERSKULL

The BBFC regularly rates things as only suitable for ages 18+. All the GTA 3 series, Gears of War, the original Manhunt and many others have all been rated as such.

I am 33 years old

Then stop whining like a 12 year old who's not being allowed to watch 15 rated movies by his parents.

Am I the only one that's thinking..."Fuck it, as long as my murder simulator is available in the U.S of A it's all gravy...."

@Mr Bentley: Speaking of re-cut/rated movies, I suppose the only thing we can hope for is that Rockstar restores the original uncut version after the clean one is rated and then sends THAT one into the field without being caught. Kinda like the Scarface movie.

I'm getting sick of this. I didn't want it 10 minutes ago, now I'm willing to import to get my hands on it. Stop fucking with my head!

@ Huxleyhobbes

I agree. I also agree with your criticism of JohnnyWashngo's post. It's unlikely that a game will improve someone's ability to asphyxiate another person, or improve the accuracy of putting a syringe in someone's eye. If that line of argument does have some validity it's that it could desensitize the individual to violence but I would argue, that photorealism of film is far more capable of that.

@ Johnnywashngo

There are so many implications for banning something outright for utilitarian purposes, especially in a liberal democracy. For a start it erodes the rights absolves responsibility of the individual. It may also set a precedent; what else may a censorship body deem inappropriate for public consumption? Criticism of government? A documentary about human rights violations? I'm not saying that this would happen in the UK, as the BBFC is an independent body with a strict set of guidelines (that they drew up), with no government or media interference, but, nonetheless, the principle of it is more than valid.

Also, when censorship was more common, was the world a safer and nicer place?

Maybe the BBFC should rate it R18 and force people to go into porn shops to buy it. I'm sure they'd achieve their aim of stopping the majority of people playing it.

Some porn shops could even do two-for-one offers - Manhunt 2 with a free copy of busty dwarves 7.

@Luckyjim:
"was the world a safer and nicer place?" Nope.

@huxleyhobbes
Normally I would agree with everything you said. I am not the sort of person who takes the increasing control agenda of the British government laying down. I oppose ID cards and any form of tracking or categorisation that the government propose.

In this case though, I find myself agreeing with the BBFC wholeheartedly.

Are we capable, as adults, of determining what games to play and how to interpret their themes and ideas without allowing them to unduly affect our behaviour? In most cases, yes.

Should we allow makes and publishers of such games the ability to sell them to any adult who wishes to purchase them and play them? Perhaps not. I don't think it is enough for someone to prove that they are old enough to play this type of game. Sadly there is no real way of ensuring that someone is emotionally stable enough to play it and not take it any further than that.#

You could, and this may be a bit of a stretch, switch the argument from games to guns. Should an person over the age of 18 be allowed to own a gun? Would you trust everyone in the street to purchase and use the gun in an appropriate fashion? I don't know about you but I would find that prospect a little unnerving. Violent games are not as physically damaging as guns, but the consequences of watching/playing the content of this game may well be as damaging mentally as the gun is physically. Like I said, its a bit of a stretch ;)

@ Mr Bentley
Sir, I would invoke Godwin's Law in your case and point you in the direction of Wikipedia ([en.wikipedia.org]'s_law)

What with the influx of happy slaps and what not, perhaps there might be something in this whole influence thing... if only the rating system actually worked and kids who want it couldn't just get their parents to buy it.

Anyway, the first game was utter shit, and I have no reason to believe that the sequel will be anything else but that.

I second the BBFC on this one. The changes made did alter the amount of gore, but not the fact that the whole game glorifies violence and torture, which should be the criterion for censorship. It's kinda hypocritical of the American authorities that they approved the cut version.
My problem with Manhunt 2 isn't the level of violence, but that torture is pretty much the only goal of the game. To put it another way: I'm fine with a game like Hitman, which features graphic violence, but doesn't really promote violent acts because you get rewarded for avoiding them. With M2, it's the other way round and altering the level of gore doesn't really change that.

Ok while the rest of the world may think that it's cool to release a game where the sole aim is to kill people. Neither Britain nor Germany do (oddly the two countries that suffered through those world wars you always play in call of duty).

I wish Rockstar would actually read and understand what the board objected to. It wasn't the graphics, it wasn't the gameplay. It was the total lack of moral reasoning for what was happening in the game. There was and remains zero reason for the killings. It's just a game where you go about killing for someone's amusement and that's it. You can't choose not to kill. You can't stealth your way through to escape etc. etc. you just plain kill guys and like it!

I know a lot of people will scream about making their own choice about buying the game but, until the shops and parents can responsibly NOT buy this type of game for little Joe. I guess there will be a need for others to ensure that it doesn't get into his hands.

@penhalion: I get what you're saying but you should probably include pretty much all of Europe in that 'suffering through wars' bit.

Oh, and Africa.

And South-East Asia.

..And Southern America.

...And..

Fuck it. If you haven't got it by now, you won't.

@ JOHNNYWASHNGO

I applaud your stance. You have given a cogent and thoughtful argument and, in your defence, your reasons for banning it is as valid (i.e. the greater good) as my arguments for lifting the ban (freedom of speech and the consumer rights of the individual). It just depends which side you butter your political toast.

However, I do take issue with the comparison to guns. You do acknowledge that games don't kill people but I still think comparing such a 'loaded' (no pun intended) subject matter with the games industry is a little unfair. You could just as easily compare guns to film and music that contain inflammatory material for supporting a ban.

To me, it seems that classification boards, and not just the BBFC, always come down hard on games without ever really stating why. Most of the time we assume it's because of the interactive element (and I'm sure it probably is). However, other than a few mainstream media articles and some anecdotal evidence, there isn't really lot of well-supported studies weighing up the relative merits and disadvantages of passive versus interactive entertainment, certainly not enough to justify a ban.

To be honest though, I don't really give a shit about Manhunt 2, just the principle.

The BBFC is an open and fairly liberal censor / classifier. If they ban it, then I'm prepared to believe they have very good reason to. The BBFC has rated hard core porn as 18 before now (on artistic grouns), so it's not like they're being run by demented fundamentalist christians or similar either.

any form of censorship is an insult to people's intelligence and a nail in the coffin of true freedom.

it's weird how even rockstar themselves were clueless enough to think that graphic violence was the problem. it's such a widespread misnomer.

i live in new zealand, where the first game's banned, and the amount of times i've heard "they ban this, but movies like hostel and saw are much more graphic" is just staggering.

but i'm not going to say what i think of the game (it's shit) or the ban (it's justified), because that is an endless argument that nobody on any side ever has any particular evidence for.

...damn you, parentheses, thwarting my every attempt to mount my high horse. (one day i will destroy you)

@luckyjim

I agree with a lot of what you have said in this thread and believe me, it pains me to be on the side of censorship as I am normally trumpeting the ability of people to make their own minds up.

This game, however, just takes things a little too far. Sometimes this can be a good thing, pushing the limits of taste and decency can be a way of breaking down barriers in societies where the day to day lives of people are being stifled by over controlling governments or dictatorships. In the case of Manhunt 2, I feel that the narrative structure and overall themes associated with the game are just tasteless and do not bring anything of value to the gaming community.

I would strive to show that video games are not all breasts and buttocks, violence and destruction but that they are capable of handling more adult and mature themes.

And the gun analogy was a bit of a stretch, apologies for that ;)

When it comes down to it, I can see both sides of the argument, but I would prefer to err on the side of caution in this case.

@Mr Bentley: I think you're the exception that proves the rule. I was talking to some friends (all 30+) at the pub about this game a few weeks back and not a single person wanted to play this game, or felt the BBFC were infringing on their rights. The general consensus was that it's a game which appeals to 15 to 20 year old boys.

How can you make your own mind up about something without being affected by it? By the time you've decided, it's kind of too late.

That's what the BBFC is for.

Nobody here has played the game - so how can you possibly say that the BBFC is wrong in banning it?

I don't want a game to be banned that should not be banned. Don't be against censorship - be against inappropriate censorship. We've got to trust these guys. If you don't, then talk to your MP. Heaven forbid anyone should actually be protected from something for their own good.

As for the "what's the difference between a game and a movie" argument, think about it. A movie is a very controlled environment, everything you see and feel has been carefully considered by the directors and screenwriters. In a game, you are given a structure, but you make you own experience within it using the tools you have. In a game you are made to feel that the decisions you make are your own (even though these are controlled by the director just as much as a movie) and IMO you are much more involved in the process - you are no longer an observer, you are a participant.

Movies and Film are not on an equal footing emotionally.

It's true that ultra violence is often attracting younger audiences.

The problem isn't the rating 18+, there are plenty of movies which are 17/18+. Problem is when such rating is given retail stores refuse to sell the game, which is frankly silly. What's the point of an adult rating when it simply means 'banned'.

@MasterOfPastures: how do you know its not a masterpiece? IMHO the first one was

@ JOHNNYWASHNGO

I totally agree with you that games need more sophisticated aspirations. It's still a bit juvenile but I see it slowly changing.

@ Fabrice

Apologies if you're from the UK but 18 rated games are freely available here. They're stocked everywhere, just as much as U, PG, 12, 12A and 15. The BBFC's problem is that they don't even want to give it an 18 rating. As I mentioned earlier, why don't they give it an R18 if it's that bad.

@nolifedopestar: It was a masterpiece of something, just not something good...

I'm quite happy with the ban - I wasn't going to pick up the game, but this at least stops it becoming a scapegoat in the violent video games argument and / or used as a reason for some deranged kid hammering his friends head in.

Duh. I didn't read correctly. If they don't even want to rate it than it's just dumb censorship.

@Ging:

What's preventing the same disturbed kid to kill everybody at his school after watching CNN news, rambo 3 or even worse, strictly come dancing.

I like how you people have no idea about the game and find the censorship right
and a gamer like Mr Bentley is wrong.

Just like in any other game like FPS ones you kill badies in this game.
The story more or less is that the protagonist took part in an experiment,
they messed with his head injecting a 2nd personality to make him the perfect
weapon. One that once that 2nd personality gets triggered is a killing
machine(thus the ammount of violence) and then turned back to normal not remembering anything.

So the protagonist is in fact a victim trying to find out what happened to him.
Other than that the game itself is fun using stealth, and delivers funny moments through the dialogues of the badies.

In a logical world sony & nintendo would accept the fact that games are also for adults, the game should remain intact, get a 18+ rating and stores just sell it to anyone with an id that proves his age.

But I guess it's to much hussle for the stores to enforce such a thing & parents would choose censorship to do their job bringing up and looking after their kids.

Let's bring down internet as well cause there's porn in it.

So does this mean all the guys at the BBFC are mindless killers now after playing the game?

I like how "the essential nature of the game" is the obstacle.