well, this whole scenario has become more intersting... in the wrong kind.

it's starting to sound like it's going to be settled on Judge Judy.

actually.... theres an idea to stew upon!

if it gets worse, it'll be a Springer scenario

Ooooh, pretty glowing eyes.

Gee, who has bigger pockets to handle such a suit? That Silicon Knights cash is some scary shit yo.....

this is gonna get ugly. But based on the information provided, it seems Silicon Knights have a stronger argument. But all information needs to be presented before any judgement can happen.

This may spell even further delays for this game. If anything we'll get some cool Nordic Mythologically inspired Sci-Fi concept artwork if this just continues. I think Silicon Knights have invested too much in the game to just let it die out. They'll most likely release it sometime just to see some funds returned for dev. and legal fees.

Wow, possible destruction of Too Human? That's harsh.

Jolly good show we have here.

This fight needs to be live...get justin tv to send both sides cams, we can watch and cheer.

That pretty much sucks.

I was actually looking forward to Too Human. I have a feeling this means it'll never see the light of day.

I want to see blood

Didn't Too Human get canned back on the N64?

You know what's interesting about this? That Epic CANNOT win. Why? If they win the case for whatever reasons, they would have just canned one of Microsoft's AAA exclusives for which MS reserved a trilogy even. So Microsoft won't get any Too Human, not even the first one.

You think Microsoft likes that? With all that what Epic did the past few months, like porting Gears to the PC, making UT3 a (timed) exclusive for the PS3, and insisting on releasing DLC for free? My guess is they'll step in at some point.

Im rooting for SK. WOO go Sk.

I don't have huge issues with epic beyond the standard. If it's on their engine it's gonna get delayed, you bought GoW for 360? Sucks to be you we made it better on PC.

Although I can certainly see there being a big problem on SK just modifying the U3 engine and using it.

Oh man, I bet Silicon Knights is gonna use this excuse for delaying Too Human even further.. Damn.

@iFlash: WOW that would be a lot of paper shuffling...LOL

Good move epic! It was starting to look like UFC for a minute!

Playstation actually, and then the Gamecube.

Silicon Knights.......You are already dead....

This should definitely be the source for another contest ala the E3 announcement betting pool. What do you think the odds would be of Mark Rein showing up in court dressed as Marcus Fenix?

This is what happens when two action game development studios collide across a sandy plain, their eyes searching deep within eachothers for that pinch of fear. Will is be the shockrifle? or the rocket launcher? The men put their hands into their jackets.. and reveal their pulsating, venomous, deathbringing...

..formal letter. They give it to some men in black suits and go home.

Isn't reality dull.

@شاه: WOW good point man man is epic screwed then some one throw a chain into the ring!

The longer this takes to go to court, the more problems we're seeing crop up with Unreal Engine 3 based development. It feels like Silicon Knights' case is getting strong, while Epic looks worse.

[eat-sleep-game.com]

Prediction: SK will lose,go bankrupt and disabandon and blame epic for it all while giving the middle finger to them.

Mega (legal) Battle?

Why dodge the obvious and easy one of just calling it an Epic Legal Battle?

@JunjiHiroma2k7:

Your statement makes no sense.

Good Lord. Is there any company that has as much bad luck as SK? Between the Too Human debacle, the Eternal Darkness N64 mess and the whole thing with Legacy of Kain, it looks like there next game out ofter Too Human will be Eternal Darkness 2 on Wii 2.

@DigitalHero: I'm just keeping it as a small little side prediction.Tables can be turned very easily you know

I'm on SK's side in this one but this should be a very entertaining bitch fight nonetheless.

Go SK. Kick their asses. Epic has really been pissing me off lately.

@Runna: VERY TRUE! ... Then I propose dodgeball on ESPN8(THE OCHO)

And with Halo 3 coming out netx month, it's not like I'll be needing gears and its 3 gametypes anymore.

Epic, I hate you. SK, although I do not necessarily agree with their philosophy and argumentative nature, do make good games. From what I understand, you sold an incomplete engine and then ignored your customers (SK is not the only studio this happened to). Also, you have so much money that the only reason I see you counter-suing is to save face. Okay, I enjoy Gears, but UT has never been my cup of tea, and, by the way, finish your engine.

@jaredgood1: Sony :)

Silicon Knights... Come back to Nintendo. Did you have these problems when you were thinking about Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem?

Trust me: Those other guys are bad news.

baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad news

@Mark Wilson:
"the destruction of infringing goods (that means...Too Human and SK's engine as far as I can tell"

that is just damn HARSH, hasnt the game been in dev' for like yeeeears now? oh epic... shame on you

So how do Epic know that SK have nicked parts of their code? Have they had someone on the inside give them a copy? Have they stolen an Alpha of the game and examined it to determine if any parts of their engine or scripting language are still in there? It seems to me Epic shouldn't be able to tell any of this without a man on the inside at SK. If that's the case I'd imagine a witch hunt will be on SK to find the leak.

I bet mark saw this coming and got cliffy to do the mtv stuff so that the gaming public wouldn't be so hard on them. Man this one is public though... I never seen one this public and so far reaching...

the good part is epic next engine has to rock! And be complete!

@Natural: Heh. At least Sony is a huge company that has a very diversified product line, so they can spread their problems out. SK seems to usually only have one game going at a time, and it seems to constantly bite them in the ass.

Any hope of getting a copy of the coutersuit?? I would really like to browse that one over!

@PhotoBoy: So your saying there are spies and ninjas involved SWEET! Man have you notice how nintendo's old pals are really catch the short end of the stick. This now Lair getting bad reviews... Do people hate nintendo that much that they still treat these guys bad..LOL I mean those cart prices where high but man...

Oh yeah I say they settle it in a ctf match thats last 3 months long!

@Photoboy:

I think that Epic can recognise from press releases and maybe E3 materials whether or not SK engine is build on top of core UE3. Even SK said in the lawsuit that new engine was not new from scratch, it was heavily-modified UE3, which in eyes of SK makes it a completely new engine.

I also think that Epic counter-suit is just a normal response and effort to save face = PR stunt. SK has a pretty solid case, delays in supplying the engine should be easy to document.

Bleh.. someone wake me up when one side wins, will ya? :/

@CONVERGE: They're talking about all builds of the game (and subsequently, the engine) using UE3 or this internal engine that is, allegedly, based on UE3 (which means it at least uses part of the source code). The Playstation and Gamecube builds didn't use that engine, obviously.

@iFlash: W00t. Dodgeball reference. XD

Anyhow, this looks like time to get the popcorn and stuff. They should have this on film, and make it a reality TV show while we're at it. XD

Wrap your heads around this one:

Potentially damaging to Silicon Knights' claims is the licensing agreement for UE3, which states, according the filing, that Epic's warranties "do not include any warranty that the functions performed by the Unreal Engine … will meet [Silicon Knights'] requirements, nor that the operation of the Unreal Engine … will be bug free or error free in all circumstances, nor that any defects of the Unreal Engine … can or will be corrected."

Maybe Silicon Knights didn't read the fine print?

Plenty of material for future "Phoenix Wright" games, huh?
Sony, Immersion, (insert name of that company sueing Sony for the Cell),MS, Silicon Knights, Epic...

I can imagine a "Phoenix Wright: Gaming Edition" hehe

PUBLICITY STUNT!!

tee hee

@CastorKrieg: True, but BiA:HH is using a heavily modified version of UE3 as well (devs said so). I'm kinda doubting that modifying the engine to a certain extent isn't included in the licensing. Also, should SK win because of the other claims, like Epic failing to deliver, it doesn't matter anymore if they modified something that they received bricked and too late.

@3xch4ng3: If that part of licensing agreement is true it is one of the worst business deals ever. In principle it comes to: "We don't guarantee the engine will work, feeling lucky to try?"

It's like buying a cat in the bag!

One more from the court filings:

Epic said Silicon Knights accessed Unreal Engine documentation 2,109 times during the evaluation period. The two companies officially entered a commercial licensing agreement in May 2005.

According to the filing, Epic gave Silicon Knights a "substantial discount" on the license, as the firm allegedly promised Epic to use UE3 exclusively on all of its games for Xbox 360, PS3 and PC.

9 Months for free? Discount Fee for Exclusivity? Not to mention BioShock, Mass Effect, Huxley, Rainbow Six Vegas, Stranglehold, and even Roboblitz all are all using the UT3 engine sucessfully?

I don't think SK got a case with this one.

Epic said that beginning in August 2004, Silicon Knights evaluated UE3 for nine months without charge in accordance with an "evaluation agreement," which granted Silicon Knights full access to the technology itself and to Unreal Developers' Network support prior to finalization of a commercial licensing agreement.

Forgot that part

As much as it sounds like a legal battle royale, part of me wants to believe that the parts of this story that make it sound insane have little to nothing to do with the actual developers, and more to do with a lawyer saying, "Well, I think we can get away with this, this, this, and this."

And then the developers are like, "Really? I didn't think I really wanted that. But, hey, you're the expert!"

@3xch4ng3: Please not that all the games you mentioned got delayed at some point in the past. Also, "exclusivity deal" and discount has nothing to do with the case, it states a fact irrelevant to whether Epic was showed neglect while supplying SK with the engine.

To your second post: UE3 was not completed at that time, SK could believe Epic will finish the engine in line with what was presented to SK, and finish in time. That however didn't happen.

As far as I'm concerned Epic can go bankrupt. They have pissed off 360 owners so much over the past few months. First saying that UT3 will be coming out on the PS3 first and now that 360 owners aren't going to get the new gears single player levels. I might just boycot all games from epic.

Does this mean that Too Human will never come out? I've been waiting for this game to come out since the Playstation.

When you are licensing a 3rd party engine you have as much time as you want to evaluate it. You could even build a game off of it, you just could not sell it legally, and would not have full technical support from that 3rd party while developing.

Epic has been around for a long time and has been in the licensing business for a while now. I doubt that suddenly they forgot better business practices and decided to screw a particular client.

Finally we would have heard from other major publishers who are using this engine as well by now don't you think?

@3xch4ng3:

I get the feeling that Epic will use this as a counter to SK's claims of it being incomplete; essentially saying "We never said it would be working properly."

They don't seem to be very confident with that argument, though. They said "Potentially damaging", as if they're not sure if that's a sound counter-claim.

All in all, I think Silicon Knights had a legitimate reason to file suit, and Epic is just firing back with the usual claims instead of rolling over and taking it in the ass. All we need now is for CliffyB or Mark Rein to file a separate suit seeking damages for "emotional distress", and we'll have a genuine Bullshit Lawsuit™ on our hands.

Ugh. To Silicon Knights and Epic:
Can't you all just be friends and focus solely on making fun games instead of having this petty legal battle? Please?

I understand a lot of people wanting to take "the little guy's" side by backing SK. I will also concede that there are many other development studios complaining about Epic's "promising the world, but when they're good and ready technique". That may just be arrogance or incomplete planning. But if you read the actual suit that SK has filed their main complaint is that the engine couldn't do what they wanted it to do, basically perform at GOW levels. Being a programmer I can offer a slightly different theory. SK just may not have had the skills available to utilize the engine to its fullest capabilities. And if they were able to create their own engine from scratch, then they really should have been able to add to the U3 engine to meet their own expectations. But then again if you watch the trailer of Too Human from E3 it really didn't look all that great. If Epic is guilty of anything it appears to be not having the time to hold the hand of every developing firm that wants to use their technology.

It seems like this is just Epic's way of forcing an out of court settlement. I think the chances of either case getting to a courtroom are slim.

SK's suit may have had a few valid claims, such as not having console optimization done on time. But they took it way too far, asking for, on top of getting the engine for free, and letting them sell it themselves, all of the GoW profits. So I can't blame Epic for biting back just as hard... Though it think they are taking it too far aswell. Hopefully the issues will be settles without either company getting totaly screwed. They both have had their problems, but make quality games - and as a long time UT modder, I absolutely love the Unreal Engine.

Epic had best be careful with this. It can become totally unviable to use their engine in a heartbeat. As far as I remember the licence allows you to modify the engine to suit your game as long as you aren't selling the resulting engine. If Silicon knights have used part of the engine, then that counts as modification for the purposes of licencing. If Epic are disputing this then they have just invalidated every unreal engine source licence out there.

Regardless of the quality of their games. Epic are arseholes.