IGE just created a spin off, to think they have completely and totally gotten out of the gil/gold/etc buying biz is silly. I hope he wins and wins big, because this is the test case that everyone needs to win in order to go though with a all out attack on IGE and all of it's spin offs.

It's funny how people are quick to put down companies like EA for being greedy and money driven.

Yet people think companies like IGE are legit and not greedy at all. The company is outright breaking the rules just by existing. It only exists because they want to cash in on MMO's.

The guys at IGE are worthless scum.

SOMEONE wants to be in the history books for a landmark case.

Just saying.

@Diesel_Power: Yet people think companies like IGE are legit and not greedy at all.

I don't know anyone, who plays WoW, and doesn't buy gold, who thinks that.

holy shit there are bigger problems in the real world than this stupid lawsuit.
Antonio Hernandez needs to get a life.

Checking the sponsored links is fun !

I don't even know how this can even be stopped. Exchanging gold is part of WoW. They would have to make it illegal for gold to be exchanged in order for this to work. What's to stop me from farming a bunch of gold, "giving" it to a friend, and having my friend give me a "gift" of money? I guess saying that players have no rights to their gold would do the trick, except then how would legitimate transactions take place?

@Gadgetron: And you need a life right along with him.

@Foxstar Sixtail: clown

@Gadgetron: By your fallacy there are more important things in the real world than video games, period. We all should get a life.

@Gadgetron:Oh so witty.

Now that the childish tripe is out of the way, who are you to say he needs a life? If he's got the time and effort to build court cases from which any sort of cash judgment, then more power to him and filing a lawsuit against one of the biggest cockblocks in almost all MMO's over the last six years is a noble effort.

Now that's done, don't you have better things do to other then posting on a video game blog in a story related to video games telling someone they need a life? You just used up part of your life making those two posts, was it worth it?

Damn the lack of edit button "From which any sort of cash judgement against IGE that will put money in his pocket is unlikely."

@Gadgetron: The Secondary Market (Sales of Virtual Goods) is estimated to rake in close to 200 Million a year in revenue. Most of that 200 million is made through the exploitation of a MMO company's own Intellectual Property. I'd call it a serious a problem, considering that people pay monthly fee's expecting for someone to prevent such things from happening.

It is worth noting that Blizzard dipped into it's own legal budget to pursue a Florida based company (Empty Office Studio with a phone, fax machine and Low Cost Chinese Long distance plan) by the name of [i]InGame Dollar Inc.[/i] The results in that case ended quietly.

Damn you BBCode!

"Um, shouldn't you guys be the ones doing this? I mean, Hernandez doesn't have a legal leg to stand on. Supporting him is great and all, but perhaps you could do more to keep this sort of thing from happening instead of just standing behind Antonio and nodding encouragingly?"

so tottally true... the gold farming bussiness can hinder the progress of real players, saturates the servers and makes more issues for the developing company (game masters)... they should be on top of these issues and not just give an encouraging palm on the shoulder to the players that want to help resolve the things that are wrong.

Really, Blizzard has been doing a decent job to stop gold farmers though. The addition of the "Report Spam" option has made them afraid to whisper random people like they used to (they only use /s which is weak) and I think honestly all the Daily quests have lowered the desire for people to want to buy gold in the first place.

But yeah, I'm a little confused as to why Blizzard isn't handling this lawsuit themselves.

@Diesel_Power: Umm, not everyone thinks companies like that are legitimate.

What an idiot.

@Foxstar Sixtail:
you are correct this is a waste of time:

@Crecente or anyone who has the power.
I request to be ban hammered.
Thank you.

I hope this loses. Blizz knows it has a timetable for people's playtime, and they know that they've built a game that tries to keep people playing for long periods of time with daily quests, raid reset timers, and just plain grinding. It's not a game of skill, according to the old fashioned conception, because all it really requires is diligence and persistence. To have strung someone along for months and month of their time, and then claim they have no property rights, yet, at the same time, attempt to enforce a situation where the time and effort in the game cannot be monetized is unprecidented in software.

I bought Photoshop. Adobe does not declare that I'm unable to use it for personal profit. If you get great at quake and play tournaments with cash prizes, id doesn't try to come after you.

Blizzard is trying to protect their money stream at the expense of their customers. You can't think of this as merely a form of entertainment when, without question, the time spent doing farming activities or daily chores identical to the experience you had every day for the last month is *not* legitimate content. Even asteroids is different every time with the movements of the *rocks*.

At one point, while playing a shammy to 70, I played with some numbers in my head--I had plenty of time to think while I mindlessly plopped totems and tried to get yeti hide off of seemingly skinless yeti--and, basically, if I could save 5 hours of grinding chore-like gameplay, it would be worth upwards of 100 dollars to me, in comparison to time I could spend doing extra projects for work or the money I might otherwise spend doing other things (going out to dinner a few times with friends, for instance). That is the value of the time they demand I spend in order to get to the parts of the game where I can reap the fruits of that work--by playing in a guild, or pvping with friends, or whatever else.

It's not trivial. IGF isn't the badguy here. Blizz could kill the industry overnight by reducing the demand for gold in the system they built, or underselling the companies.

In any case, it's hard to tell if blizz even wants to expunge the gold farmers. After all, they're paying customers, and it gives them an excuse to, occasionally, ban a bunch of accounts, knowing full well that the people involved will need to go buy a new copy of the game to continue playing. It's basically super-lucrative.

@deathbunny: So it's Blizzard's fault that you spent time playing their game? What?

"It's not trivial. IGF isn't the badguy here."

Yes, yes they are. In fact IGE is one reason time sinks are so bad in MMO's if you pay attention because any easy quest with any sort of tradable/sellable reward would be abused to hell and back by dozens and dozens of RMTs working 24/7 shifts.

It sounds like your someone who wants his cake and to eat it too. Every single MMO is built on a timesink model, without them they aren't profitable. If you want the good stuff, then you have to invest time into it. That's the way of the world, son. Your type is one reason RMT's are so damn bad in almost every MMO on earth, because you are -lazy-, yet you want to run with the big dogs and do all the fun stuff.

@deathbunny

Someone doesn't get MMO's and should just quit playing them

The part of this that makes me laugh is that people are paying a monthly fee to PLAY this game, and then PAYING SOMEONE ELSE to play it for them..... freakin' lazy retards....

@Foxstar Sixtail: It's blizzards fault that they gate their content with significant time investments. Yeah. If you want to get to where your friends are and play the game, or even just see new content, the time investment is substantial. To compare, the time required to see all the content in a typical non subscription game is usually under 10 hours these days--possibly 20 if it's a final fantasy or metal gear.

This gating isn't done because there is a tremendous amount of content that requires the time to appreciate--the 10th time you go through some dungeon, hoping for the equipment that will make you viable down the line, you are not getting your money's worth. It is not ennobling you to spend that time--any monkey can 'run with the big dogs' in a raid, because the requirements have nothing but time involved. If I can't use my talents and intellect to cut that time short within the game system, then I should be able to use the fruits of it in the real world to cut to the chase.

To say nothing of the fact that the quote 'big dogs' unquote avail themselves of these services. That's no mystery, hell, Luke Smith on the 1-up podcast who was the scarab rider on his server was proud of it.

This is a middle class issue. The middle class of WoW is tricked into thinking that the real problem is the farmers, when, in reality, the problem is the way that the bar to experience content is set so high that you either have to be rich in time or money to get there. Instead of acknowledging who made the game that way, the trick seems to be to blame the people trying to exchange one for the other, while the people, I'm assuming, like *you*, are bitter about how hard they try, but can't hit the top tier, because they have things to do. Like a life and a job.

And MMOs don't have to be timesinks in the sense of gating content around time. They can be designed like normal, healthy games. Even if it's puzzle pirates turning your normal casual gaming into an MMO, or Planetside, turning your normal FPS game into an MMO...etc etc. RPGs aren't ends in themselves, they're vehicles to keep gameplay fresh.

And don't call me 'buddy', guy.

The whole "gating" issue, and the fact that being top-tier in MMO's means nothing except ridiculous time-sinks is why I play Guild Wars.

I'm all for banning gold farmers but it will NEVER happen.
Blizzard does NOT want to end gold-farming. It's simple economics - China hires dozens of gamers to play WoW everyday 365 days a year, that equates to money, ALOT of money even with the lower monthly price point. EU and US WoW gamers will complain but the likelihood of someone quitting over gold farming is RARE. I'd say less than 1-2% quit because of this and more so because they are bored of the game or got divorced over it etc.

It's an easy system to fix. Stop allowing people to move gold and attach it to your characters. Anything mailed should have penalties. How often does someone REALLY need to mail out 1000g? Obviously there's a bunch of issues with this but this is just one idea. I'm sure the brilliant minds at Blizzard know plenty of ways to defeat gold farmers but as I said before they wont - it's bad for business

@deathbunny: It's blizzards fault that they gate their content with significant time investments. Yeah.

I'm super anxious to know what you think the alternative scenario is. How quickly should you goals in-game be achievable? One month? One day? 6 hours? You've established "fault," here, congratulations - now work on explaining why gating content on time investment is a bad thing. It instills a sense of accomplishment - giving players something to work for and (for those who have acehieved) be proud of - insofar as those terms are appropriate for accomplishments in a video game.

If you want to get to where your friends are and play the game, or even just see new content, the time investment is substantial.

That depends entirely on "where your friends are" and how willing they are to help you catch up. I just recently started playing again with a friend who has been playing 8-hour days for the entirety of the game's existence. He offered me assistance with quests, gold, crafting, etc. and in less than a month of casual play I am experiencing the same content he is and having a blast doing it. Blizzard has done an incredible job balancing their game in favor of casual players - daily quests allow you to amass enough gold to purcahse the most sought after items with just an hour or two a day invested, unlike previous MMO's which required dedication on par with a part-time job to even begin to see a return. Badge loot and crafting allow you to catch up in terms of gear quality without the countless hours spent in dungeons.

To compare, the time required to see all the content in a typical non subscription game is usually under 10 hours these days--possibly 20 if it's a final fantasy or metal gear.

Yes, and to compare most people play a Final Fantasy game or Metal Gear for ~1-2 months at most. WoW is a game that most people can easily enjoy for a year or more and which I'm sure will provide over a decade of entertainment for a certain portion of their players.

This gating isn't done because there is a tremendous amount of content that requires the time to appreciate--the 10th time you go through some dungeon, hoping for the equipment that will make you viable down the line, you are not getting your money's worth.

Uhh, what? How is that for you to decide? If I'm having fun with friends, I honestly don't care if it's the 5th time or the 50th time I've done something - I'm still having fun with friends. Throwing back a few beers, listening to music, chatting/joking with friends and killing some mobs. I mean, every encounter in D&D plays out more or less the same way - roll d10 for initiative, roll d20 for hit, roll damage, rinse repeat - did that stop us from wasting away a decades worth of weekends playing it and having fun? Shit no.

It is not ennobling you to spend that time--any monkey can 'run with the big dogs' in a raid, because the requirements have nothing but time involved.

Spoken like someone who has never actually "run with the big dogs" in a raid. Trust me there are plenty of people who have put the time in but still don't see the content because they, like you, think the game is just about pressing buttons and seeing pretty colors on the screen. There's plenty of nuance to learn and master if you're willing to try and being successful in the most difficult encounters requires a lot more than just "gear."

This is a middle class issue. The middle class of WoW is tricked into thinking that the real problem is the farmers, when, in reality, the problem is the way that the bar to experience content is set so high that you either have to be rich in time or money to get there.

No; the real problem is people who think they need to see and do everything in the game to enjoy it.

Most casual players don't give two-f'ing-shits about the "big dogs" to be honest. There's plenty of content available to people with less time on their hands, and plenty of fun to be had for those with full time jobs, families and other responsibilities. Moreso than any MMO in history, WoW provides something for everyone - from 5-hour a week players to the 80-hour a week players. You just have to understand that not EVERYTHING is there for EVERYONE. I don't PvP because I don't have the time. I'm sure it's fun, but I don't do it. I also don't see the high-end raid content, again, because I have a family and a job and I just don't have the time. Do I get my panties all up in a bunch about it? No. I have fun with the game anyway because there's plenty of other stuff for me to do and I have fun playing with friends.

Maybe you just need to get over your jealousy of the "big dogs" and learn to enjoy the game for what it does have to offer YOU. Or not. Nobody's forcing you to play.

of course blizz isn't going to do anything i can guarentee they own a gold farming buisness or two.

@OneFreeMan: I mentioned the alternative scenario. People playing TF2 do not feel the pain of being on a single map. They still play for long periods of time. RPG elements are good for keeping something inherently fun, fresh. Not for gating content. You're talking about pvp being a time sink, which is funny, since of all the activities in the game, it's the easiest to pick up and play, and enjoy without having to go through the same dungeons endlessly performing the same actions repeatedly.

don't quote 'big dogs' at me, as if I came up with that nonsense. That was somebody else's psychotic contribution.

The funny thing is that you characters are following the behavior of addicts to an absolute T, and, like all addicts, are hopelessly unable to see it.

Maybe I'm just jealous? Yeah. totally. Super jealous. Have fun over there with that thing. I'm going to be over here doing something else.

Ghost Devilsaur form.

@deathbunny: I mentioned the alternative scenario. People playing TF2 do not feel the pain of being on a single map.

Nor do WoW players. Including Karazhan, there are 14 dungeons easily accessible to casual players and all offer unique and challenging scenarios on Heroic mode. There are also 4 separate Battlegrounds of varying size as well as 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5 arena play all of which differ in terms of strategy and gameplay experience - and that doesn't touch the daily and group quests, world PvP, etc.

Are you telling me if I play TF2 for 12 hours a week for a year that I won't be "endlessly repeating" the same maps? That's news to me, 'cause I certainly thought there were a finite amount. What makes that okay for TF2 but not WoW, exactly?

[quote]You're talking about pvp being a time sink[/quote]

No I'm not. I just used it as an example of one of the things I don't do in the game because I budget my time. I don't raid end-game dungeons, I don't do a lot of crafting, I don't PvP or play in the Arena, I don't have my epic Netherdrake mount, etc. None of this makes me feel cheated. In fact, it's good to know all of that stuff is there should I one day choose to change the way I spend my time in game.

[quote]without having to go through the same dungeons endlessly performing the same actions repeatedly.[/quote]

This as opposed to going through the same TF2 maps endlessly performing the same actions repeatedly?

Did you ever think maybe you just don't LIKE the game? That's okay, you know.

The funny thing is that you characters are following the behavior of addicts to an absolute T, and, like all addicts, are hopelessly unable to see it.

Yah, I know a lot of heroin addicts who only think about heroin for 10 hours a week in their spare time between holding down a full time job, supporting a family, gardening and volunteering.

You've clearly been around a lot of real addicts in your day, that's for sure.

If Blizzard ever managed to shut down the gold farmers they would be forced to actually make it fun to acquire gold in their game. It is never, has never been, and never will be fun to acquire gold in WoW. WoW has the most neutered economy of any of the MMO games I've played.

As a counterexample, EVE is a game that you can achieve complete satisfaction with doing nothing but making money, even as an individual. The game world revolves around economy instead of looting dungeon crawls.

In reality, WoW is little more than a very large, overgrown Diablo II style dungeon crawl with larger groups, and a very elaborate lobby.

@DefDealer:

It's actually already implemented. A couple of patches ago they added a one hour delay to mailing gold to characters not flagged to your own account. They also implemented instant-mails between characters flagged on the same account, meaning instant item/money sent between your characters.

All auction house sales also have a one hour delay now. There's a pair of reasons for this:
1 - Shortly before the patch that implemented all this, they had started tracking down gold sales via checking mails of large amounts of money transfered between known gold sellers and potential customers. This led to a lot of ban hammers going off, gold sellers losing their accounts. To counter this, they started exploiting the auction house -- They'd request the buyer to post up a certain number of insanely priced auctions over dirt-cheap items, like the lowest level food possible you can grab off a vendor. This way, it would be a little more discreet than the usual 'poof, billion gold in the mail'.
2 - I suspect large amounts of money sent via mail are automatically flagged for monitoring now. I don't quite get how the one hour delay solves anything, but that's my guess.

Blizzard isn't as dumb as people make them out to be generally. They've done a lot to cut down on gold sellers -- how much they actually want to stop them, I don't know. I agree when people say Blizzard have pretty solid reasons to be a bit more tolerant than they actually should be torwards gold sellers.

Sounds like an unsatisfied customer to me. I've gone through the whole WoW phase, and let me tell you... spending upwards of eight hours to simply make a few thousand gold is not worth anyone's time unless they're getting paid for it.