Kotaku
Microsoft's willing to bend the rules! As we posted earlier, the 150 MB file limit that's standard for Xbox LIVE Arcade titles has been ditched for Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix and Bionic Commando Rearmed. This ensures that Xbox 360 owners and PS3 owners don't get vastly different games. Does this mean Microsoft is setting a new policy? That the 150 MB limit is a thing of the past? For now, probably not. Though, Bionic Commando producer Ben Judd does think it's important for Microsoft to look at each Arcade title individually, and apparently Microsoft is doing just that. Says Judd:
It would be nice if they would adapt a policy of determining what the size limit would be based on the concepts submissions they are getting in. With BCR it features 20 different levels, 20 enemies, multiple attacks, next-gen shadows, scripting, 50 challenge stages, lots of sound effects, hi-res art from CJ's best artist, etc, etc. If you put that much in you just need more space if you are shooting for HD quality graphics as well. On the other hand, I don't think a game like Tetris (even if it is HD) would require as must space as say an MGS game due to it's huge amount of voice.I think standards are good for maintaining consistancy across a brand image. Sony, Nintendo, and MS all have policies concerning naming, icons, and features but still you need to be able to take a case by case approach on occasion if you see a title that you think really needs to bend the rules a bit.
No kidding — especially if it means the XBLA version and the PSN version are going to be different levels of quality. Continuing, Judd adds:
I'm not kidding myself, Street Fighter is a much more endeared brand than Bionic Commando but it's still nice to see MS was willing to adapt their policy in order to support Bionic Commando Rearmed as well as Street Fighter HD Remix. I'm sure this is because they feel these games will solidify XBLA as a prime platform for digital distribution.Size-wise Sony has the advantage for now but MS has plenty of other advantages. They both have their advantages and disadvantages but isn't that ALWAYS the way it is? Heck, that's half the fun about deciding which system to buy... you know you gain one thing but lose another.
Wonder how much longer Microsoft can keep bending the rules like this... Either way, Microsoft loses. Refusing to bend the rules makes Microsoft look stubborn. Bending the rules makes Sony look, well, right.
Comments
Um, they're already doing that.
From Capcom's Blog:
"Microsoft has told us that their partners have been very happy with the file size for Xbox LIVE Arcade titles, and they do not see a need to change their policies anytime soon. They're going to continue working with their partners on many levels (including offering technical support from their own engineering staff, which is really nice!) in order to bring the best entertainment possible to their network. Microsoft is going to continue working with ALL their partners - not just us, mind - and if a game warrants a file size exception, they'll provide one on a case-by-case basis."
[blog.capcom.com]
M$ have bigger problems on their hands than download limit: RROD, all of these downloads but little to no hard drive to put them unless you pay exorbitant amount ($99 for 20GB? They must be greedy).
Destroy the rules and release the 120gb drive for $80-100.
... and i'm still thinking that capcom have to modify the SF2HDR sprites for the limitation of space on Live.
It's awesome that they're giving Capcom more space...But I think they need to just ditch the size limitations all together. It's not fare to the smaller companies that don't have as much pull as Capcom. This issue is going to keep coming up unless they do something about it.
Though, it might open up the floodgates on companies trying to get 5653635GB games on the service.
"Heck, that's have the fun about deciding which system to buy... you know you gain one thing but lose another."
Just get both, then you don't have to worry. I don't have a 360, but I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything, with the exception of not being able to play DOA4, DOAX2, and RRXX.
@Maverick_fox: Are you not reading the article correctly or are you just dumb. The unlocked sized limit is allowed for both BC and SSFII HD. Please oh Please read before you write.
@Sailorcancer: Those games are all system sellers... Me I bought the 360 for the outfit.
Or... Offer them on a disk for $5 more. I'd pay it to have a physical copy of these games.
@JorgieX: yes, i read it. and i think that's a good move for Microsoft. but have you seen the last modification that capcom made to the sprites? they remove like 3 colour tones. now the sprites look like the ones they use on the alpha series.
@DemonBlood: Hey wassup Demon, I agree with you on some points. I agree that the smaller companies arent gonna get the perks the global companes get but that is the price of earning your place in the grand scene of things. But, by haveing a structured size and policy will make games more inovative and creative and also allow the a360 Acade owners to buy and play arcade games from a memory cards.But I would think at least 256Mb would be a better option since M$ does sell 512Mb sized memory cards. But you do make some valid points and if rumors are true the Arcade might be getting the 20GB HDD, while the new Pro will soon come with a 60BG HDD to be more value compared to the 120GB Elite. Let's hope for all 360 systems to come with a HDD in the near future.
Man, what a philosophizer. Today, I gained a Wendy's Baconator... and I lost the rest of the menu.
@Xiedo: Hey, that's not all! You probably lost a little bit of self-respect and gained a little bit of weight too. We trade many a thing when we Baconate.
@DemonBlood: well what he's trying to say here is that it doesn't matter the company, it's all down to what game it is.
@Maverick_fox:
The change to the Art was not due to any size restrictions. Please read this article again
[blog.capcom.com]
Snip from that article:
"As a necessary part of development, we had to outsource a lot of the work to an outside company that based their work off of Udon's key frames. This company has an excellent reputation and ability as an outside art contractor and we were very impressed with their overall resources and their infrastructure. Without going into the nitty-gritty of it, the art they were producing just wasn't up to par or schedule of what we needed. To be honest, a lot of their art was looking pretty good, but just not "good enough." It just wouldn't satisfy the quality bar that both Capcom and Street Fighter fans demand."
@Grave: Now they droppin and yellin, it's a tad bit late
Nate Dogg and Warren G had to Baconate
@Maverick_fox: Oh I was not aware and I apoligize and need to take my own advice. I have been keeping tabs on this games and wasn't aware of the change I am looking into it now and I appreciate the information. If this is true that is really the wierdest subtraction to a game due to size contraints. Also since they are now offered the extra size will they add those shades back to the game?
uh..... they actually gimped SSF2T HD for both versions (XBL/PSN) in order to fit the new "limit" of the XBL. it seems that capcom is favoring too much microsoft, they will reget that later but... money talks.
@Gambare:
Jeezy Creezy, does no body actually read anymore?
Dude, this is straight from the link that was posted 3 fucking post above you.
"So, we turned to Udon to help solve this problem. First, they identified that all of us (Capcom and Udon) were aiming way too high with our render style. In the original style, we were going using at least 6-8 tones to go from the darkest to the lightest values of a particular color. This, as some fans actually pointed out, is extremely hard to do. We decided to stick it out and go with that route and unfortunately, it didn't work out too well.
Udon's suggestion was to take the tones down to about 4. So now, a particular color will go through about 4 shades when going to light to dark. Some tweaking was also done to the line art to match this new rendering style as well. The overall result is a different style that is still going to be in full HD, but will be more efficient to animate and therefore get the game to you guys sooner. It also looks pretty damned good."
[blog.capcom.com]
So basically their policy is we have a 150mb limit... unless the game needs more space (although I'm sure if the title wasn't thought to be popular, M$ would make sure it was squeezed down in any way possible).
Are there any concrete examples of a game *actually* suffering from these size limits? Or only speculation that it might possibly be a problem?
512MB cards mean even Arcade users can download pretty large games, so that's not the issue. And MS are willing to make exceptions for particularly rich games, so it's not even limiting that.
Could it be that some pressure on programmers to optimise their games a bit more, compress their assets better might be a *good* thing? (see: farbrausch) Who wants bloatware, if a bit more effort will keep it trim? Especially on a downloaded game.
@DemonBlood: it's a bit of a silly argument really. would a developer spend time/effort/money to make the assets required for a huge game, when all they get is a slice of 400-800 ms points?
anyway, it's odd there's this soft-limit for arcade games, apparently for the hdd-less crowd, when the movies (understandably) run at around 2-6 gig.
@Namarrgon: Well, when you get into HD resolutions, sometimes that compression can start to show up. Instead of "compress" I prefer to think "optimization" is needed. Even then, a dds/jpg/etc texture for a 1080i/p game is going to need some space.
@Namarrgon: That's cute, but programmers can't just "try harder" - time spent optimising costs money that could be spent on gameplay or artwork or testing. You're also much more likely to see quality cuts to bring something in under size, from more compression settings that can just be turned up a notch (on textures, animations, music and sound FX). It's not like developers are trying to fill space and waste bandwidth, it's just that using a reasonable amount of disk space is usually the most cost effective way to get a game out and make it rock. Same reason full game demos are usually a gigabyte or more now.
Demo sceners are in a different world - they don't care about getting a particular game out, they don't care about cost effective and they regularly modify their ideas to fit their compression algorithms. Do you really want every game to be Weird Organic Shape Vs The Robotic Spirals Of Despair? There *is* serious compromise going on there, because that's the only way to work to such limited filesizes.
@xbulletholes: I'd hope that the movies don't have much to do with it. It's all about diversifying their product. MS has to appeal to people that can afford a nice internet connection and to d/l all those large files (or even want to). They also have to consider people that can't download all that stuff (again, or even want to), like me.
I'm not gonna spend my money on an HD screen, plain and simple. I'd rather just walk over to Blockbuster.
Capcom bartered the online beta exclusivity for the extra file size, once again giving it to ps3 owners in the rear...
@durrem: Don't get me wrong, it definitely sucks that PS3 owners are getting the shaft from Capcom yet again, but I don't think I buy your theory.
I don't mind not getting a demo on the PS3 as long as we get the kickass game =). Looking forward to the full game remake too.
And again, Microsoft break "standards". Even his own "standards".
wow and I was just saying 10 hours ago how I would buy this game because of MS's policy file limitations. Glad to see they lifted it for this game. Sold.
By the time the next Xbox comes out this whole limit will be either gone or extremely high. The arcade should be considered to be on the same level of the xbox originals. Also by the time the next Xbox comes out they hopefully will be done with thinking lots of gamers would get the console without wanting to go online. (no more "core")
@Evo: You still have to pay over $20 for a PS2 8MB memory card.
I would like to be able to use my own HDD, but I can understand why they did it. I just hope they adjust prices in the near future.
There was once a wise ship's captain named Jean-Luc Picard who said "There can be no justice so long as laws are absolute!"
How right he was.
@RonCey: Kotaku posted that... the editor may have had a mental slip in his parting words but I'm sure he knows and wasn't attempting to imply otherwise.
@Maverick_fox: Sweet! Speculation :) Let's just start making shit up.... I heard Ben Judd made M$ his bitch!!!
Good for MS, for getting out of their own way. Having a "gimped" version of a game because of some arbitrary file limit is stupid.
How much farther can they go beyond 150mb tho? I'm assuming there's a hard limit of 200~250MB since you're otherwise going to be completely shafting the Arcade users who dont have a HDD, though users with no HDD is probably a small, small minority population.
@muu: Why would Microsoft STOP shafting arcade users? I mean they already got a crippled system that doesn't work well with the console's main feature anyway, why stop now?
but REZ was only around 120Mb... and that had WAY more effects
I wouldn't say bending the rules necessarily makes Sony look right. Sure from a certain perspective it does, but what it really shows is Microsoft is willing to make exceptions when the need arises. There are plenty of good reasons to have a size limit on XBLA. (NOTE: gamers not having a hard drive is not one of them. As overpriced as HDDs are, the memory cards are offensively overpriced) The biggest reason being that without limits its possible we'd see these bloated space hogs 3 or 4x the size they should be.
If these consoles had decent sized hard drives I wouldn't care, but I have the 20GB HDD for my 360 and space is at a premium. If I had enough space I'd download Psychonauts. Sure I could get more space, but even if I wasn't still unemployed I wouldn't blow nearly $200 for the 120GB model. At least the PS3 allows for users to install their own drives.
Ultrasinc, Rez is pretty but high-resolution 2D art and textures take up way more space... Wish I could sya that better.
Oh, and I'm glad I can get the XBLA versions instead of the PSN versions of these games now. :)
Brian, limits keep the developers in check. If there weren't hard drive, memory and processing limits, Developers would never release anything. We'd need giant hard drives and quality control would be out the window.
Like Ken Levine said the other day about deadlines. Good deadlines make a game great, bad ones make the developer insane.
@WatershipDown: "They needs diciprin!"
@Evo: The 120GB HD is $99, not the 20GB. Go troll elsewhere.
Well, it is interesting to think of the size limit as quality control. It's fair to say that even though live arcade titles cost about the same, you run the gamut on quality that is delivered. I mean that games are less fun to play, controls aren't sharp, etc. Now if you bend the rules for Street Fighter and Bionic commando then you release a better looking game that has more freedom to implement systems and new effects. This in turn makes the other games look worse while they still cost the same price as these new better and bigger games. Microsoft would basically be punishing their previous releases under this imposed limit and pushing sales toward the new ones. Kind of like actual games sales I suppose, push the new releases and make launch titles greatest hits. Maybe this could be an introduction into reduced prices for old live arcade titles?
@zPhreak: Umm, you're a very special form of misinformed:
[www.amazon.com]
It is $100 for the 20GB.
Thanks for playing though.
MS needs to quit being a squandering little bitch. And @zPhreak... the 20GB Drive is indeed $99, the 120 is $179. Both RIDICULOUS prices. Beating the dead horse as always, MS needs to make HDD mandatory from now on and discount the shit out of their overpriced HDD's.
@DeeBG: Actually, the higher the resolution the *less* artifacts show.
@randomnine: It's true that optimising requires more time/money, but it also provides benefits too. It's easy to slash assets, but that brings c