Anything that isn't FPS is fine on a console.

What about the new EndWar game? Military speak to command units? I'm so there!

Less talk, more Proofs.

Was Grimgrimore good for the genre?

Actually, that's sort of a joke. I love those guys.

Agreed on the whole mouse/keyboard thing. Those games are rough to play with a controller. Just too much going on.

@Fulgurator: Exactly what I was thinking. Eventually we are all going to end up having to plug in USB keyboards and mice in order to be competitive...

I really am pinning my hopes for the console RTS on Halo Wars.

It has the resources behind it to be very good, but I just don't know how they are gonna manage the transition.

My guess is that it will try to do too much and fail badly or find a nice simplified but fun system that will become the standard.

Not that I am a particular fan of the Halo series, but I think they did a good job of refining the FPS to work well on a console, and a lot of games since have used that model. (obvious credits to Rare/Free Radical ofcourse)

C&C 3 worked OK control-wise on the console, but I think the bigger issue with the game was that there was too much going on the screen to keep track of on an SDTV. The game really needed to be played in HD to get a decent handle on the action. Given that most 360 owners still aren't playing in HD, this is a huge issue for the average gamer.

You just can't get the level of micro that you can on a pc... it's basically dumbing down the game and holding the player back. Unless it is a really slow moving RTS game with units that have tons of hp and can just sit there and not cast spells / use special abilities, then ok. Otherwise, it is a waste to get RTS games on console. We all know how great starcraft was on console, right?

I once read a brilliant comment somewhere:

"Playing FPS with a dual analogue stick controller is like trying to wank wearing a boxing glove"

Swap out FPS with RTS and it works just as well here.

How exactly can you dumb down a genre that's just - acquire resource - build army - smite enemy. Certain tweaks here and there, but that's all the RTS has been... ever. Any time someone suggests ideas to actually evolve the genre, people balk (see the politics suggestion a while back). I'll stick with Rise of Nations for now!

@DarkGildon:
Is that bad? I'd love it if the 360 had keyboard and mouse support for all it's shooters. I don't understand why people who make consoles/FPSs for consoles force me to play with a controller.

@Anthropomancer: Supcom and Company of heroes are more sophisticated than that.

@Anthropomancer: How exactly can you dumb down a genre that's just - pick up piece - move piece - capture enemy. No tweaks anywhere, that's all Chess has been... ever. Any time someone suggests ideas to actually evolve the genre, people balk (see the politics suggestion a while back). I'll stick with Tic-Tac-Toe for now!

@DarkGildon: fps works better on consoles than rts...

@gamadaya: It isn't bad, but it kind of beats the purpose of a console. Half of the gameplay comes with the controller. Imagine porting every game from any console to PC and just using the relevant controllers on PC...

Console RTS' are pointless until they let us use a K+M to control it.

No matter how good a control scheme they make for a controller, it just can't beat the speed and accuracy of a mouse for selecting and deploying units.

I actually prefer to use a pad for FPS' (mainly because I can't stand moving with the keyboard) but for RTS' there is just no way. They just aren't fun to play on a pad.

Both PS3 and 360 have USB ports. Stop locking out K+M options and just let us play the way they are meant to be played. It makes no sense.

So long as they continue to force pad controls, I'll continue to not buy them.

What the fuck...

The only reasons why he thinks the RTS genre is stagnant is because of asshats like him that keep making the same shit over and over again.

Relics Dawn of war and Company of Heroes.
Supreme Commander.
World in Conflict
Sins of a solar Empire they are all pretty resent RTS games that all tried to push what RTS game is and did so in brilliant way.

CC3 and Universe at war where both old school RTS game with nothing new to offer the world at all NOTHING!!!

Both where boring ass hell so before this asshat should open his mouth he should see what the competition is making and blowing him out of the water with.

@0Jigsaw: I don't really think they work "well". They just work. If any console FPS supported multiplayer between consoles and PCs, PC players would always have the advantage because of mouse+keyboard's quicker responsiveness.

I have Uncharted on the PS3, and I've beaten it. But I'm sure it would've been so much easier with a mouse.

RTS games for me will always be PC. There's just something about the tight controls of a mouse and keyboard combined with the 'in your face' of a PC monitor. It'll be a tough sell pulling me away from that.

"The evolution of RTS from PC to console is all about re-discovering the core fun of the genre while stripping away the redundancy, over-complication, and bloat that has been attaching itself to RTS games over the years."

Otherwise known as dumbing down the genre.

Great the internet ate my post so her we go agian

What the fuck...

The only reasons why he thinks the RTS genre is stagnant is because of asshats like him that keep making the same shit over and over again.

Relics Dawn of war and Company of Heroes.
Supreme Commander.
World in Conflict
Sins of a solar Empire they are all pretty resent RTS games that all tried to push what RTS game is and did so in brilliant way.

CC3 and Universe at war where both old school RTS game with nothing new to offer the world at all NOTHING!!!

Both where boring ass hell so before this asshat should open his mouth he should see what the competition is making and blowing him out of the water with.

I guess I'm the only person who thought C&C3 controlled fantastically on the 360. I've been a fan of RTS games for a long, long time and I agree with his sentiment.

@CrimsonAngel: This nerd rage was sponsored by "BEER it is good for you"

@Korey: I guess giving a tramp a wash and a haircut can be seen in a lot of ways as dumbing down the tramp, right?

Get real.

Wow, I've lost some respect for Adam Isgreen. I never thought that would happen. No PC-oriented developer should be GLAD that console gaming is becoming more popular.

If you want to work on console games, Adam, just stop the RTS production and make a game in a genre that's actually suited to the shitty control schemes of consoles. The RTS genre is not meant for fucking analogue control sticks.

Releasing RTS games for consoles is nothing but a waste of time. The majority of RTS fans are PC/Mac users, console control schemes are simply too simplistic to make a great RTS game out of anyway, and really, how many of the millions of HALO3 players out there are you going to pull away from their run-and-gun slugfest with Universe at War, which unfortunately turned out far more mediocre than it should have been.

Petroglyph should focus on making better RTS games for their most important platform, not working towards simplifying games of a genre that are supposed to be built around complexity in the first place. If they want to keep making crappy RTS games for consoles, fine. But I sure as hell won't be playing them.

I'm just happy through all of this that Gas Powered Games exists, and that Chris Taylor and Co are die-hard, PC enthusiasts. While they may be releasing a version of SupCom for the 360, I can always count on them to support the PC platform.

RTS on consoles would be fine if they would give us mouse / keyboard support. Although when that does happen, I bet it will go to PS3 first.

Oh, and all RTS console games need at least a basic map editor as well.

Honestly EA actually made console RTS games work. I didn't believe it at first, but after playing C&C3 I can honestly say that they nailed it. The current problem with consoles and RTS games is that the consoles cant handle the amount of units on screen at once. So in C&C 3 online(x360 of course) you have a unit cap of 50 which makes the game impossible if youre nod.

@CrimsonAngel:
Totally agree with you. And ya Sins of a Solar empire is amazing.

@Burguois:
Even though they did a good job on the console port of C&C3 it still a shadow of itself on the PC. It would be an easy fix if they allowed a KB/M but again kinda defeats the purpose of a console.

Since when did an RTS gamer ever say, "Fuck this, I'm using a gamepad?" It don't work. It won't work. I know, I made comments before about how mastering the controls of a game is part of the fun, but for games like this, the Wiimote/Nunchuk combination (which is pretty much a keyboard/mouse setup) is the best choice. A dual-stick solution does not necessarily dumb down the experience, but it takes away a lot of the immersion.

@NutManIV: We didn't play the same game.. I started RTS with the only game I owned on the genesis

[www.gamespot.com] Herzog Zwei

If Halo Wars is good, then I might start believing that console RTS games can work. Until I see one RTS that doesn't suck on a console, I will not believe that RTS games have any place on a console.

I agree with this. Not only will control schemes be revamped, but it seems more 'new' or 'innovative' mechanics are coming out of the works. Such as squad based gameplay for Halo Wars and C&C 3 (thank god for Dawn of War), and now (supposedly) sophisticated voice command for End War. I know a lot of people love the strategy of an rts, resource gathering and base building, but I hate it with a passion. I'm desparate for a tactics based game with intricate gameplay mechanics. Like, jamming radio between enemy units and watch them scatter, killing an officer to see morale and fighing ability drop, or detailed building interiors for intense city-fight. Those are COMPLETELY off the top of my head, I'm just trying to depict the general direction of 'detailed' RTT (real time tactics) gameplay means to me.

See: Patapon.

I'm surprised no one else has mentioned it yet.

Wii controls are perfect for a RTS..
I don't understand why no one tried it yet :/

@xpnet: That clunky system might have worked 10+ years ago, but it just looks stupid now.

Anyone played FFXII: Revenant Wings? That was, to me, a surprisingly competent RTS for a handheld system. The stylus of the DS really made up for lack of mouse.

I think a console variant of that gameplay would be too awkward and unnecessarily finicky, though, unless it did use the typical PC keyboard and mouse control. I haven't played many console RTSes, and honestly have trouble imagining that genre on the platform.

@Burguois: As many have pointed out, it's been proven that you can have a competent port of an RTS game on consoles; you just need to make it simple enough to suit the limitations of console input devices. This is known as "dumbing it down."

RTS's are inherently complicated. This guy is saying "let's just make really simple 'made-for-console' RTS's." Would you ever make "that" game for the PC? No, because it is in fact a dumbed down game and PCs are capable of so much more. If theoretically a console RTS was ported to the PC, you can bet that the PC version would come with a bunch of advanced features that weren't possible in the console version.

The FPS genre was successfully ported to consoles, but just barely, and RTS control schemes are way more complicated than FPS's ever were. You can't even do PC vs console FPS matches fairly, as Shadowrun proved. What makes you think you can create a good RTS experience on a console without dumbing it down?

@CockroachMan: Hmm... Point well made... I figure there may be an issue discerning player inaccuracy when selecting the smaller units during a busy segment with a shaky hand, but if they do something to offset that issue, then a Wii RTS would be pretty neat.

I was able to play and finish warcraft 2 on Sega Saturn. I think i can handle anything now.

maybe not.

@xpnet:

Herzog Zwei!!!!

That is one of my all time favorite games and my first experience with RTS games and it worked on a controller with 3 buttons. I think it came out in like '90 and it was amazing. I was like 11 years old and my brother and I could't stop playing it...split screen no less. We even would set up a cardboard barrier in the middle of the TV so you couldnt see what the other guy was doing.

@DigiMish: It was a fun game..

But Red Alert 2 with Sun way points is my play style of choice BUT... the way EA took Westwood's Command and Conquer controlles in CnC3 are horrible. I tried so hard to get passed it but haven't yet.

I disagree with this guy:
I'm not a huge RTS player but I do think RTS and people that enjoy deep strategy, don't appreciate it being stripped down to the 'core gameplay' especially the mouse control as interface. I'm sure he can branch off and use RTS basics to fuel a new console centric hybrid-genre, and this may grow more players and introduce them to RTS. BUT, I think that it's going to be awfully hard not to 'dumb' down 'real' RTS with out mouse and keyboard support.
We'll see, won't we. Never say never or ever ever.

@Mpalm.:

Well, to be honest, StarCraft 64 was actually pretty fun. It did feel way too limited though. But SC is fun no matter what you use to play it.

All the hate doesn't change the fact that the man is dead right.

what does he mean that RTS are going the route of Point and Click and Text based games?

"We need to grow the RTS market and bring in new players, not isolate it further into eventual niche obscurity."

For sure, Starcraft 2 (PC only) will turn out to be a marginal title that the mouse-phobic masses will almost totally ignore...yeah Blizzard sure is shooting themselves in the foot by remaining dedicated to the PC!

Bwahahaha!

Console controllers can easily be used to control and RTS. The main worry is probably moving around the screen. Easily sorted by using the same controls as the Ps3 webbrowser uses. Left analogue stick moves the window, right analogue stick moves the pointer. Pretty easy to get used to.
Thinking further if you had to press and hold X to select things it'd be more difficult, but that could be sorted by using the R3 button to replace a mouse click.
As for creating squad hotkeys (ctrl and 1-9 on PC) you can use the D-pad for the first four, then press triangle or something to make the D-pad switch to having the next 4 mapped and. Then one more press of triangle takes you back so its the original 4 squads mapped to the D-pad. Thats 8 squads, and it could easily be 12 or 16.

Consoles have the power now. The transition to playing RTS's on them is just going to take a little thought and getting used to.

Damn, just noticed all my typos... Burning shame now fills me...